Remarks of Vice President Cheney and Senator Edwards in Vice Presidential Debate part II

Debate

Part II

For Immediate Release
Office of the Vice President
October 6, 2004
Remarks of Vice President Cheney and Senator Edwards in Vice Presidential Debate
Veale Center
Case Western Reserve University
Cleveland, Ohio

9:03 P.M. EDT

MODERATOR: This next question goes to you, Senator Edwards. Senator Kerry said in a recent interview that he absolutely will not raise taxes on anyone under -- who earns under $200,000 a year. How can he guarantee that and also cut the deficit in half, as he's promised?

SENATOR EDWARDS: Because we will do what they've not done. If you look at over the last four years, we have gone from a $5 trillion projected surplus, when George Bush took office, to a $3 trillion projected deficit. They promised they were going to put $2 trillion of the surplus aside from Social Security -- not done. Not only that, it's the biggest fiscal turnaround in American history. And there's no end in sight. The Washington Post just reported they have several trillion dollars of additional tax cuts in spending -- no suggestion of what they're going to do about it. John Kerry and I believe we have a moral responsibility not to leave trillions of dollars of debt to our children and our grandchildren.

So here's what we're going to do, to answer your question. To pay for the things that we believe need to be done -- and I hope to get the chance to talk about health care and also about education, because we have plans on both those subjects -- what we're going to do is roll back tax cuts -- and I want everyone to hear this, because there have been exaggerations made on the campaign trail -- roll back tax cuts for people who make over $200,000 a year. We will do that. We want to keep the tax cuts that are in place for people who make less than $200,000, and give additional tax cuts to those middle class families -- tax cuts for health care, tax cuts to help families pay for their college tuition, tax cuts for child care. These families are struggling and hurting and they need more tax relief, not less tax relief.

But to help get us back on the path to a balanced budget, we also want to get rid of some of the bureaucratic spending in Washington. One of the amazing things that's happened is they've actually layered on more supervisory people, people at the supervisory level, in this government.

We also want to close some corporate loopholes. Now, I want to be honest with people. We can't eliminate this deficit. People have heard that over and over and over in four years. We cannot do it. We are in too deep of a hole. But we can cut the deficit in half, and we can move this country back on a path to fiscal responsibility.

MODERATOR: You have 90 seconds, Mr. Vice President.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, the Kerry record on taxes is one basically of voting for a large number of tax increases, 98 times in the United States Senate. There's a fundamental philosophical difference here between the President and myself, who believe that we ought to let the American people keep more of what they earn, and we ought to empower them to have more control over their own lives. I think the Kerry-Edwards approach basically is to raise taxes and to give government more control over the lives of individual citizens. We think that's the wrong way to go. There's a fundamental difference of opinion here.

They talk about the top bracket and going after only those people in the top bracket. Well, the fact of the matter is, a great many of our small businesses pay taxes under the personal income taxes rather than the corporate rate, and about 900,000 small businesses will be hit if you do, in fact, do what they want to do with the top bracket. That's not smart because seven out of ten new jobs in America are created by small businesses. You do not want to tax them, bad idea to increase the burden on those folks.

The Senator himself said, during the course of the primaries, that the Kerry plan would drive us deeper into deficit. Those were the Senator's words about his running mate. The fact of the matter is, the President and I will go forward to make the tax cuts permanent. That's good policy. That's what we ought to do, but with fiscal restraint, we'll also drive the deficit down 50 percent in the course of the next five years.

MODERATOR: Thirty seconds, Senator Edwards.

SENATOR EDWARDS: Thank you. We have committed to cutting back anything in our programs that need to be cut back to get us back on a path to fiscal responsibility. John Kerry, Mr. Vice President, has voted, voted or cosponsored, over 600 times, tax cuts for the American people, over 600 times. And there is a philosophical difference between us and them. We are for more tax cuts for the middle class than they're for, have been for the last four years, but we are not for more tax cuts for multimillionaires. They are. And it is a fundamental difference in what we think needs to be done in this country.

MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds, Mr. Vice President.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Yesterday, the President signed an extension of the middle-class tax cuts -- the 10-percent bracket, the marriage penalty relief, and the increase in the child tax credit. Senators Kerry and Edwards weren't even there to vote for it when it came to final passage.

MODERATOR: Next question goes to you, Mr. Vice President. I want to read something you said four years ago at this very setting: Freedom means freedom for everybody. You said it again recently when you were asked about legalizing same-sex unions and you used your family as an experience, your family experience as a context for your remarks. Can you describe, then, your administration's support for a constitutional ban on same-sex unions?

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, you're right. Four years ago in this debate, the subject came up, and I said then, and believe today, that freedom does mean freedom for everybody. People ought to be free to choose any arrangement they want. It's really no one else's business.

That's a separate question from the issue of whether not government should sanction or approve or give some sort of authorization, if you will, to these relationships. Traditionally, that's been an issue for the states. States have regulated marriage, if you will. That would be my preference.

In effect, what's happened is that in recent months, especially in Massachusetts, but also in California, but in Massachusetts we had the Massachusetts Supreme Court direct the state of -- the legislature in Massachusetts to modify their constitution to allow gay marriage. And the fact is that the President felt that it was important to make it clear that that's the wrong way to go, as far as he's concerned. Now, he sets policy for this administration, and I support the President.

MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, 90 seconds.

SENATOR EDWARDS: Yes. Let me say first, on an issue that the Vice President said in his last answer, before we got to this question, talking about tax policy, the country needs to know that under what they have put in place, and want to put in place, they -- millionaires sitting by their swimming pool, collecting their statement to see how much money their making, make their money from dividends, pays a lower tax rate than the men and women who are receiving paychecks for serving on the ground in Iraq.

Now, they may think that's right. John Kerry and I do not. We don't just value wealth, which they do. We value work in this country. And it is a fundamental value difference between them and us.

Now, as to this question. Let me say first that I think the Vice President and his wife love their daughter. I think they love her very much. And you can't have anything but respect for the fact that they're willing to talk about the fact that they have a gay daughter, the fact that they embrace her. It's a wonderful thing. And there are millions of parents like that who love their children, who want their children to be happy. And I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, and so does John Kerry.

I also believe there should be partnership benefits for gay and lesbian couples in long-term, committed relationships. But we should not use the Constitution to divide this country. No state for the last 200 years has ever had to recognize another state's marriage. This is using the Constitution as a political tool, and it's wrong.

MODERATOR: New question, but same subject. As the Vice President mentioned, John Kerry comes from the state of Massachusetts which has taken as big a step as any state in the union to legalize gay marriage. Yet both you and Senator Kerry say you oppose it. Are you trying to have it both ways?

SENATOR EDWARDS: No, I think we've both said the same thing all

along. We both believe that -- this goes onto the end of what I just talked about -- we both believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But we also believe that gay and lesbians, and gay and lesbian couples, those who have been in long-term relationships, deserve to be treated respectfully, they deserve to have benefits -- for example, a gay couple now has a very difficult time, one, visiting the other when they're in the hospital; or, for example, if, heaven forbid, one of them were to pass away, they have trouble even arranging the funeral. Those are not the kind of things that John Kerry and I believe in and I suspect the Vice President, himself, does not believe in that.

But we don't -- we do believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. And I want to go back, if I can, go back to the question you just asked, which is this constitutional amendment. I want to make sure people understand that the President is proposing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage -- that is completely unnecessary. Under the law of this country for the last 200 years, no state has been required to recognize another state's marriage. Let me just be simple about this. My state of North Carolina would not be required to recognize a marriage from Massachusetts, which you just asked about. There is absolutely no purpose in the law and in reality for this amendment. It's nothing but a political tool, and it's being used in an effort to divide this country on an issue that we should not be dividing America on.

We ought to be talking about issues like health care and jobs and what's happening in Iraq, not using an issue that divides this country in a way that's solely for political purpose. It's wrong.

MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen, let me simply thank the Senator for the kind words he said about my family and our daughter. I appreciate that, very much.

MODERATOR: That's it?

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: That's it.

MODERATOR: Okay, then we'll move on to the next question. This one is for you, Mr. Vice President. President Bush has derided John Kerry for putting a trial lawyer on the ticket. You, yourself, have said that lawsuits are partly to blame for higher medical costs. Are you willing to say that John Edwards, sitting here, has been part of the problem? (Laughter.)

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen --

MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President. (Laughter.)

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I -- first of all, I'm not familiar with his cases. My concern is specifically with what's happened to our medical care system because of rising malpractice insurance rates, because we've failed to adequately reform our medical liability structure.

I was in New Mexico the other day. I met with a group of OB/GYN docs. And they were deeply concerned because they were fearful that there would be another increase in malpractice insurance rates as a result of what they believe are frivolous lawsuits, and that that would put them out of business.

One doctor indicated that her rates have gone up so much that she's now to the point where she is screening patients. She won't take high-risk patients anymore because of the danger that that will generate a lawsuit, and a lawsuit will put her out of business. This has had a devastating impact on a lot of communities. My home state of Wyoming, we've lost the top insurer, malpractice insurance in the state. The rates for a general practitioner have gone from $40,000 a year to $100,000 a year for an insurance policy. We think this has a devastating impact on the quality of health care. As I say, high-risk patients don't get covered anymore. We've lost one out of 11 OB/GYN practitioners in the country. We think it can be fixed, needs to be fixed.
Now, specifically, what we need to do is cap non-economic damages, and we also think you need to limit the awards that the trial attorneys take out of all of this. Over 50 percent of the settlements go to attorneys and for administrative overhead.
We passed medical liability reform through the House of Representatives. It has been blocked in the Senate. Senator Kerry has voted 10 times against medical liability reform, and I don't believe Senator Edwards supports it either -- not the kind that would be meaningful.

MODERATOR: Senator Edwards?

SENATOR EDWARDS: Yes. Well, let me say, first of all, I'm proud of the work I did on behalf of kids and families against big insurance companies, big drug companies, and big HMOs. We do have too many lawsuits, and the reality is there's something that we can do about it. John Kerry and I have a plan to do something about it. We want to put more responsibility on the lawyers to require before a case of malpractice, which the Vice President just spoke about, have the case reviewed by independent experts who determine the case is serious and meritorious before it can be filed; hold the lawyers responsible for that, to certify that, and hold the lawyer financially responsible if they don't do it; have a three strikes and you're out rule so that a lawyer who files three of these cases without meeting this requirement loses their right to file these cases.

That way we keep the cases out of the system that don't belong in the system. They talk about frivolous cases -- we believe cases that don't belong in the system should never be in the system. But we don't believe that we should take away the rights of people like Valerie Lakey, who is a young girl who I represented, five years old, severely injured for life on a defective swimming pool drain cover. It turns out the company knew of 12 other children who had either been killed or severely injured by the same problem. They hid it. They didn't tell anybody. They could fixed it with a two-cent screw. That's wrong. John Kerry and I are always going to stand with the Valerie Lakeys of the world, and not with the insurance companies.

MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, new question to you, same topic. Do you feel personally attacked when Vice President Cheney talks about liability reform and tort reform, and the President talks about having a trial lawyer on the ticket?

SENATOR EDWARDS: Am I personally attacked? (Laughter.) I think -- I think the truth is that what they're doing is talking about an issue that really doesn't have a great deal with what's happening with medical costs in this country, which I think is a very serious issue. And I will be the first to say what the Vice President described a few minutes ago -- problems with malpractice claims -- that's true, it's real, it's very real. I mean, what doctors talk about is very serious and they're getting squeezed from both sides, because they have trouble getting reimbursed, first of all, for the care that they provide --from the government or from health care provider -- I mean health care companies. And on the flip side, their malpractice costs are going up. That's very real, which is why we have proposed a plan to keep cases out of the system that don't belong there.
But it's very important to put this in context. Because in context, everything they're proposing -- according to the bipartisan Congressional Budget Office -- amounts to about half of one percent of health care costs in this country -- half of one percent.
We have double digit inflation in health care costs. We've seen the largest rise in medical costs in the last four years in the country's history: $3,500 nationally. And nobody who's watching this debate needs me to explain this to them, they know it. Medicare premium is up 17 percent on their watch. Again, largest increase in Medicare premiums in the history of Medicare. We think -- we have a plan to keep cases that don't belong in the system out. But we also do what they haven't done. Five million Americans have lost their health care coverage; medical costs skyrocketing. We have a serious health care plan to bring down costs for everybody, to cover millions more Americans, and to actually stand up to drug companies and insurance companies, which this administration has been unwilling to do.

MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Yes, Gwen, we think lawsuit abuse is a serious problem in this country; we think we badly need tort reform. I was in Minnesota the other day, where I visited an aircraft manufacturing plant. It's a great success story. This is a company that started 20 years ago with nothing; today, they're the second leading producer of piston-driven aircraft in the country. He told me that if it weren't for the increased cost of his liability insurance -- in this case, product liability -- he could hire 200 more people in his factory.

We've built into the system enormous costs as a result of our practice with respect to litigation. We have to find ways to get a handle on it.

You mentioned Medicare up 17 percent, somehow that that was something we caused. No. The 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums was the direct result of the statute adopted in 1997. John Kerry voted for it. It establishes a formula for Part B of Medicare that says, in effect, it has to cover 25 percent of the cost of the program. And the reason the money had to go in to the trust fund was to make certain that we could cover those eligible for benefits.

While you were in private practice in law, and as a senator, you had a advantage of a special tax loophole, subchapter-S corporation, which you set up so you could avoid paying $600,000 in Medicare taxes that would have gone into the fund. And it's those kinds of loopholes that necessitate a premium increase under the law that was enacted in 1997, supported by John Kerry.

MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds to respond.

SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, first of all, I've paid all the taxes that I owe. When the Vice President was CEO of Halliburton, they took care of -- took advantage of every off-shore loophole available. They had multiple offshore companies that were avoiding taxes.

Those are the kind of things we ought to be closed -- that ought to be closed. They ought to be closed for anybody. They ought to be closed whether they're personal and they ought to be closed whether they apply to a corporation. But the reality is, health care costs are going up every day for the American people, and I hope we're going to get a chance to talk more about health care.

MODERATOR: Thirty seconds, Mr. Vice President.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: We've done a lot to reduce the costs of health care. The Medicare and drug benefit that we'll be providing to seniors beginning in '06 will provide upwards of $1,300 a year to help them buy prescription drugs. The drugs savings, drug discount card that's now available saves an estimated 15 to 30 percent off the cost of prescription drugs for senior citizens.

So we're moving in as many areas as we can to make certain we hold down or reduce health care costs.

MODERATOR: And we'll talk to you about health care, Mr. Vice President. You have two minutes. But in particular, I wanted to talk to you about AIDS, and not about AIDS in China or Africa, but AIDs right here in this country, where black women between the ages of 25 and 44 are 13 times more likely to die of the disease than their counterparts. What should the government's role be in helping to end the growth of this epidemic?

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, this is a great tragedy, Gwen, when you think about the enormous cost here in the United States and around the world of the AIDS epidemic -- pandemic, really. Millions of lives lost, millions more infected and facing a very bleak future. In some parts of the world, we've got the sort of entire sort of productive generation has been eliminated as a result of AIDS. All that's left are old folks and kids, nobody to do the basic work that runs an economy.
The President has been deeply concerned about it. He has moved and proposed and gotten through the Congress authorization for $15 billion to help in the international effort, to be targeted in those places where we need to do everything we can through a combination of education, as well as providing the kinds of medicines that will help people control the infection.
Here in the United States, we've made significant progress. I had not heard those numbers, with respect to African American women. I was not aware that it was that severe an epidemic there, because we have made progress in terms of the overall rate of AIDS infection. And I think, primarily, through a combination of education and public awareness, as well as the development as a result of research of drugs that allow people to live longer lives, even though they are infected. Obviously, we need to do more of that.

MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, you have 90 seconds.

SENATOR EDWARDS: Yes, well, first, with respect to what's happening in Africa and Russia and other places around the world, the Vice President spoke about the $15 billion for aid. John Kerry and I believe that needs to be doubled. And I might add, on the first year of their commitment, they came up significantly short of what they had promised.
And I -- we probably won't get a chance to talk about Africa. Let me just say a couple of things. The AIDS epidemic in Africa, which is killing millions and millions of people, and is a frightening thing, not just for the people of Africa, but also for the rest of the world. That, combined with the genocide that we're now seeing in Sudan, are two huge, moral issues for the United States of America, which John Kerry spoke about eloquently last Thursday night.

Here, at home, we need to do much more. And the Vice President spoke about doing research, making sure we have the drugs available, making sure that we do everything possible to have prevention. But it's a bigger question than that. You know, we have 5 million Americans who have lost their health care coverage in the last four years -- 45 million Americans without health care coverage. We have children who don't have health care coverage. If kids, and adults, don't have access to preventative care, if they're not getting the health care that they need day after day after day, the possibility of not only developing AIDS and having a problem -- having a problem, a life-threatening problem, but the problem of developing other life-threatening diseases is there every day of their lives.

MODERATOR: Okay, we'll move on. This goes to you, Senator Edwards, and you have two minutes. Ten men and women have been nominees of their parties since 1976 to be Vice President. Out of those 10, you have the least governmental experience of any of them. What qualifies you to be a heartbeat away?

SENATOR EDWARDS: The American people want in their President and in their Vice President basically three things. They want to know that their President and their Vice President will keep them safe. They want to know that they have good judgment. And they want to know that you're telling the truth. John Kerry and I will tell the American people the truth. During the time that I have served in the -- on the Intelligence Committee in the Senate, traveling to some of the places we've talked about tonight -- Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Middle East, Turkey, meeting with leaders of NATO -- I have a very clear idea of what has to be done to keep this country safe.

The threats we face, terrorism, killing terrorists and stopping them before they can do damage to us, making sure that we stop the spread of nuclear weapons, I agree with John Kerry from Thursday night, is -- the danger of a nuclear weapon getting into the hands of terrorists is one of the greatest threats that America faces.

But the one thing that we know from this administration is -- and, first of all, I don't claim to have the long political resume that Vice President Cheney has. That's just the truth, and the American people know that and deserve to know it. But what we know from this administration is that a long resume does not equal good judgment.

Here are the judgments I would make. My first priority would be to keep this country safe. I would find terrorists were they are, and stop them, and kill them, before they do harm to us. We would stop the spread of nuclear weapons. And we would also strengthen this military, which means providing the equipment and training that they need. We want to raise the active duty forces by 40,000, double the Special Forces, so we can find terrorists where they are, and provide the kind of support for families -- health care, housing -- that they deserve while their loved ones are serving and protecting us.
MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: You want me to answer a question about his qualifications?

MODERATOR: That was the question.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I see. Well, I think the important thing in picking a Vice President probably varies from President to President. Different Presidents have approached it in different ways. When George Bush asked me to sign on, it obviously wasn't because he was worried about carrying Wyoming. We had 70 percent of the vote in Wyoming, although those three electoral votes turned out to be pretty important last time around. (Laughter.)

What he said he wanted me to do was to sign on because of my experience, to be a member of the team, to help him govern. And that's exactly the way he's used me. And I think from the perspective of the nation, it's worked in our relationship, in this administration. I think it's worked, in part, because I've made it clear that I don't have any further political aspirations myself, and I think that's been an advantage. I think that allows the President to know that my only agenda is his agenda. I'm not worried about what some precinct committeemen in Iowa is thinking of me with respect to the next round of caucuses in 2008.
It's a very significant responsibility, when you consider that, at a moment's notice, you may have to take over as President of the United States and make all those decisions. It's happened several times in our history, and I think that probably is the most important consideration in picking a Vice President, somebody who could take over.

MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds if you'd like to --

SENATOR EDWARDS: Actually, the most important thing I've learned from this process is what I now know about John Kerry. I knew him before; I know him better now. He's the one candidate who's led troops in battle; he was a prosecutor, putting people behind crime -- behind bars to protect neighborhoods from crime; called for 100,000 cops on the street; went with John McCain to Vietnam to find out what happened to our POWs. And the American people saw for themselves on Thursday night the strength, resolve and backbone that I myself have seen in John Kerry. He is ready to be Commander-in-Chief.

MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, you have 30 seconds to respond.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, I clearly believe that George W. Bush would be a better Commander-in-Chief. He's already done it for four years, and he's demonstrated, without question, the conviction, the vision, the determination to win this war against terror. He understands it's a global conflict that reaches from the United States all the way around the globe to Jakarta. And those very special qualities are vital in a Commander-in-Chief and I think the President has them and I'm not at all convinced his opponent does.

MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, picking up on that, you both just sang the praises of the tops of your ticket. Without mentioning them by name at all, explain to us why you are different from your opponent, starting with you, Mr. Vice President.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Why I am different from John Edwards? Well, in some respects, I think probably there are more similarities than there are differences in our personal story. I don't talk about myself very much, but I've heard Senator Edwards, and as I listen to him, I find some similarities.

I come from relatively modest circumstances. My grandfather never even went to high school. I'm the first in my family to graduate from college. I carried a ticket in the International Brotherhood of Electric Workers for six years. I've been laid-off, been hospitalized without health insurance. So I have some idea of the problems that people encounter. So I think the personal stories are, in some respects, surprisingly similar.

With respect to our -- how we've spent our careers, I, obviously, made a choice for public service. And I've been at it for a good long time now, except for those periods when we lost elections. That goes with the turf, as well, too.
I -- I'm absolutely convinced that that the threat we face now, the idea of the terrorists in the middle of one of our cities with a nuclear weapon, is very real, and that we have to use extraordinary measures to deal with them. I feel very strongly that the significance of 9/11 cannot be underestimated. It forces us to think in new ways about strategy, about national security, about how we structure our forces, and about we use U.S. military power. Some people say we should wait until we are attacked before we use force. I would argue we've already been attacked. We lost more people on 9/11 than we lost at Pearl Harbor. And I'm a very strong advocate of a very aggressive policy of going after the terrorists and those who support terror.

MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, you have 90 seconds.

SENATOR EDWARDS: Mr. Vice President, we were attacked, but weren't attacked by Saddam Hussein. And one thing that John Kerry and I would agree with you about is that it is --

MODERATOR: You just used John Kerry's name.

SENATOR EDWARDS: I'm sorry, I broke the rule. (Laughter.) One thing that we agree about is -- is the need to be offensive in going after terrorists. The reality is that the best defense is a good offense, which means -- and leading -- America returning to its proud tradition of the last 75 years of once again leading strong coalitions so we can get at these terrorist cells where they are before they can do damage to us and to the American people.

John Kerry made clear on Thursday night -- I'm sorry, I broke the rules. (Laughter.) We made clear -- we made clear on Thursday night that we will do that, and we will do it aggressively. But there are things that need to be done to keep this country safe that have not yet been done. For example, three years after 9/11, we find out this administration still does not have a unified terrorist watch list. It's amazing. Three years. What are we waiting for? We still don't have one list that everyone can work off of to see if terrorists are entering this country. We're screening passengers going on to airplanes, but we don't screen the cargo.

There are so many things that could be done to keep this country safe. You have to be strong, and you have to be aggressive, but we also have to be smart. And there are things that have not been done that need to be done to keep the American people safe.

MODERATOR: Would you like to respond, 30 seconds?

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: No.

MODERATOR: Okay, we'll move on. This goes to Senator Edwards. Flip-flopping has become a recurring theme in this campaign, you may have noticed. Senator Kerry changed his mind about whether to vote to authorize the President to go to war, President Bush changed his mind about whether a Homeland Security Department was a good idea or whether 9/11 Commission was a good idea. What's wrong with a little flip-flop every now and then?

SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, first of all, let me say that John Kerry has -- I can use his name now? (Laughter.)

MODERATOR: Yes, you can.

SENATOR EDWARDS: Okay. John Kerry has been, as have I, been completely consistent about Iraq. We've made very clear from the beginning -- and not afterthought, we said it at the time -- that we had to confront Saddam Hussein and that we had to have a coalition and a plan to be successful. And the Vice President didn't say much about it in your earlier question, but Paul Bremer has now made clear that they didn't have enough troops and they didn't have a plan. And the American people are seeing the results of that every single day, in spite of the proud and courageous service of our men and women in uniform.

Now, flip-flop. Yes, they should know something about flip-flops. They've seen a lot of them during their administration. They were first against the 9/11 Commission, then they were for it. They were for a Department of Homeland Security, and they were against a Department of Homeland Security, then they were for it. They said they were going to put $2 trillion of the surplus, when they came into office, aside to protect Social Security. Then they changed their minds. They said that they supported the troops, and then, while our troops were on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, they went to the Congress and lobbied to have their combat pay cut. They said that they were going to do something about health care in this country, and they've done something -- they've made it worse. They said that they were going to fund their No Child Left Behind -- $27 billion short today.

Over and over, this administration has said one thing and done another. This President said, I listened to him the other night at his 2000 debate, saying, I'm for a national patients bill of rights. I know something about this. John McCain and Senator Kennedy and I wrote it, got it passed in the Senate. We don't have a patients bill of rights because of one man today, the President of the United States. They've gone back and forth.

MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, 90 seconds.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen, I can think of a lot of words to describe Senator Kerry's position on Iraq -- "consistent" is not one of them. I think if you look at their record for voting for sending the troops, then voting against the resources they needed when they got there; then saying, I actually voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it; saying in response to a question, knowing everything I know now, yes, I would have cast exactly the same vote; and then shortly after that, saying, wrong war, wrong place, wrong time. Consistency doesn't come to mind, as I consider that record.

The question of troops is an interesting and important one. We look to our commanders on the ground in Iraq for guidance on what they think they need. If they need more troops, they'll ask us. But the key here is not to try to solve the problems in Iraq by putting in more American troops. The key is to get the Iraqis to take on the responsibility for their own security. That's exactly what we're doing. If you put American troops in there in larger numbers and don't get the Iraqis into the fight, you'll postpone the day when you could, in fact, bring our boys home. It's vital that we deal with any need for additional troops by putting Iraqis into the effort.

Forty-nine percent increase in funding for elementary and secondary education under No Child Left Behind. That's a lot of money, even by Massachusetts standards.

MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds, if you choose.

SENATOR EDWARDS: Yes, but they didn't fund the mandates that they put on the schools all over this country. That's the reason 800 teachers -- one of the reasons 800 teachers have been laid off right here in Cleveland. One-third of our public schools are failing under this administration. Half of African Americans are dropping out of high school. Half of Hispanic Americans are dropping out of high school. John and I have -- and I don't have the time now -- but we have a clear plan to improve our public schools. It starts with getting our best teachers into the schools where we need them the most by creating incentives for them to go there.

MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, No Child Left Behind, they were for it, now they're against it. They voted for it, now they're opposed to it. We are making significant progress there. We are closing the achievement gap. The results coming in from a number of studies show, without question, that on math and science -- math and reading, that in fact, our minority students our Hispanic and African American students are doing better and that gap between them and the majority population is, in fact, closing.

So we are doing exactly the right thing. They're the ones who have been for the Patriot Act, then against it, for No Child Left Behind and then against it.

MODERATOR: Mr. Vice President, our final -- I'm sorry, you have 30 seconds, Senator Edwards.

SENATOR EDWARDS: Are you -- yes -- yes, 30 seconds, yes. We are for accountability, and we are for high standards. John and I voted for No Child Left Behind because we thought that accountability and standards were the right thing to do. But they -- did you figure out you were wrong?

MODERATOR: I did figure out I was wrong. (Laughter.)

SENATOR EDWARDS: Well, in fairness, if you feel like you need to go to him --

MODERATOR: Well, I do, because we're actually on the final question. I apologize for giving you an extra 15 seconds. There I go now, to Vice President Cheney. Whichever one of you is elected in November -- you mentioned those three electoral votes in Wyoming and how critical they turned out to be. But what they're a sign of, also, is that you're going to inherit a very deeply divided electorate economically, politically, you name it. How will you set out, Mr. Vice President, in a way that you weren't able to in these past four years, to bridge that divide?

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, I must say, it's one of the disappointments of the last four years, is that we've not been able to do what the President did in Texas, for example, when he was able to reach across the aisle and bring Democrats along on major issues of the day. We had some success early on. I think the No Child Left Behind, when we, in fact, had broad bipartisan support, we had a lot of support for the Patriot Act when we passed that on a bipartisan basis. Now we're seeing objection to that by the other side.

All I know is to continue to try to work it. It's a disappointment, in the sense that I remember, from my earlier service, when things worked much differently, when in fact some of my best friends in the Congress were people I worked with, like Tom Foley, who was a Majority Leader, and later Speaker of the House. One of my strongest allies in Congress when I was Secretary of Defense was Jack Murtha, a Democrat who was Chairman of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee.
We used to be able to do more together on a bipartisan basis than seems possible these days. I'm not sure exactly why. I think in part it may be the change in the majority-minority status in the House and Senate has been difficult for both sides to adjust to. And the Senate, of course, has been very evenly divided, 50-50 and 51-49, then 49-51 the other way.
We'll keep working at it. I think it's important for us to try. I believe that it is essential for us to do everything we can to garner as much support from the other side of the aisle as possible. We've had support -- we even had -- our keynote address at our convention was delivered by Zell Miller. So there are some Democrats who agree with our approach. And, hopefully, in a second term, we'll see an improvement along those lines.

MODERATOR: Senator Edwards, 90 seconds.

SENATOR EDWARDS: Thank you. The President said that he would unite this country, that he was a uniter, not a divider. Have you ever seen America more divided? Have you ever seen Washington more divided? The reality is, this is not an accident; it's a direct result of the choices they've made, and their efforts that have created division in America. We can do better than that in this country.

Now I want to go back to the whole issue of health care, because we touched it, but I think the American people deserve to know what we do different. I mean, 5 million people losing their health care, everyone who is watching this knows health insurance premiums are through the roof. We need to talk about what we will do that they haven't done.

First, we're going to make the same health care that's available to members of Congress available to all Americans. We're going to cover all kids. Not only that, we're going to bring down costs by pooling the catastrophic costs, so we bring down premiums, and we're going to give tax breaks directly to families, save them up to $1,000 a year, and to businesses -- the Vice President talked about that a few minutes ago -- so that they can provide health care to their employees.

And we're also going to finally do something about the cost of prescription drugs. They blocked allowing prescription drugs into this country from Canada, we're going to allow it. They would not allow the government to use its negotiating power to get discounts for seniors; we're going to allow it. We're also going to stand up to the drug companies and do something about these drug company ads on television, which are out of control.

MODERATOR: You have 30 seconds to respond to that, Mr. Vice President.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Well, Gwen, it's hard to know where to start. (Laughter.) The fact of the matter is, the most important and significant change in health care in the last several years was the Medicare Reform Bill this year. It's the most sweeping change in 40 years. Medicare used to pay for heart bypass surgery, but didn't pay for the prescription drugs that might allow you to avoid it. The fact is that when that came up, Senator Kerry and Senator Edwards voted against it. It will provide prescription drug benefits to 40 million senior citizens. It's a very, very significant piece of legislation.

MODERATOR: Thirty seconds.

SENATOR EDWARDS: They had a choice on allowing prescription drugs into this country from Canada of being with the American people or with the drug companies. They were with the drug companies. They had choice on negotiating discounts in the Medicare prescription drug bill of being with the American people or with the drug companies. They were with the drug companies. They had a choice on the patients bill of rights, allowing people to make their own health care decisions and not having insurance companies make them, to be with the American people or be with the big insurance companies. They're with the insurance companies. John Kerry and I will always fight for the American people.

MODERATOR: As previously agreed, we'll go to closing statements now, two minutes each; coin toss, Senator Edwards, you begin.

SENATOR EDWARDS: Thank you. Thank you, Gwen. Thank you, Mr. Vice President, for being here. You know, when I was young and growing up, I remember coming down the steps into the kitchen, early in the morning, and I would see the glow of the television. And I'd see my father sitting at the table -- he wasn't paying bills and he wasn't doing paperwork from work. What he was doing was learning math on the television. Now, he didn't have a college education, but he was doing what he could do to get a better job in the mill where he worked. I was proud of him; I'm still proud of him.

And I was also hopeful, because I knew that I lived in a country where I could get a college education. Here's the truth. I have grown up in the bright light of America. But that light is flickering today. Now, I know that the Vice President and the President don't see it, but you do. You see it when your incomes are going down, and the cost of everything -- college tuition, health care -- is going through the roof. You see it when you sit at your table each night, and there's an empty chair, because a loved one is serving in Iraq or Afghanistan. What they're going to give you is four more years of the same.

John Kerry and I believe that we can do better. We believe in a strong middle class in this country. That's why we have a plan to create jobs, getting rid of tax cuts for companies outsourcing your jobs, give tax cuts to companies that will keep jobs here in America. It's why we have a health care plan. It's why we have a plan to keep you safe, and to fix -- fix this mess in Iraq.
The truth is that every four years, you get to decide, you have the ability to decide where America is going to go. John Kerry and I are asking you to give us the power to fight for you, to fight to keep that -- that dream in America, that I saw as a young man, alive for every parent sitting at that kitchen table.

MODERATOR: Vice President Cheney.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Gwen, I want to thank you. It's been a privilege to serve as your Vice President these last four years and to work alongside President Bush and put our economy on an upward path. We've cut taxes, added 1.7 million new jobs in the last year, and we'll continue to provide opportunities for business and for workers. We won't be happy until every American who wants to work can find a job. We believe that all Americans ought to have access to available -- to medical care, and that they ought to have access to the finest schools in the world. We'll do everything we can to preserve Social Security and to make certain that it's there for future generations.

I've worked for four Presidents, and watched two others up close, and I know that there's no such thing as a routine day in the Oval Office. We saw on 9/11 that the next -- next decision a President has to make can affect the lives of all of us. Now we find ourselves in the midst of a conflict unlike any we've ever known, faced with a possibility that terrorists could smuggle a deadly biological agent or nuclear weapon into the middle of one of our own cities. That threat, and the Presidential leadership needed to deal with it, is placing a special responsibility on all of you who will decide on November 2nd who will be our Commander-in-Chief. The only viable option for winning the war on terror is the one the President's chosen: to use the power of the United States to aggressively go after the terrorists wherever we find them, and also to hold to account states that sponsor terror.

Now that we've captured or killed thousands of al Qaeda and taken down the regimes of Saddam Hussein and the Taliban, it's important that we stand up democratically elected governments as the only guarantee that they'll never again revert to terrorism or the production of deadly weapons.

This is the task of our generation and I know firsthand the strength the President brings to it. The overall outcome will depend upon the ability of the American people and the strong leadership of the President to meet all the challenges that we'll face in the days and years ahead. I'm confident we can do it.

MODERATOR: And with that, we come to the end of tonight's debate. On behalf of the commission and the candidates, I'd like to extend a special thank you to the students and administration here at Case Western Reserve University.
A reminder, the second Presidential debate takes place this coming Friday at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri. Charles Gibson of ABC News will serve as moderator of that encounter, where the candidates will field questions from an audience. Then, on October 13th, from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona, Bob Schieffer of CBS News will moderate a debate on domestic issues.

For now, thank you, Vice President Cheney, Senator Edwards. From Cleveland, Ohio, I'm Gwen Ifill. Thank you and good night. (Applause.)

END 10:40 P.M. EDT

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